The Toronto Trader

[blackice]

....and we are OFF! The offseason starts off with a bang and newly minted GM of the Toronto Raptors, Blackice, makes his first two moves.

Trade 1.

TOR

SENDS
Jeremy Lin - $13,440,000
TOR '23 2nd
TOR '24 2nd
Total $$$ Sent:

MIN

SENDS
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson - $9,809,540
Total $$$ Sent: $9,809,540 (X 1.5= $14,714,310>$13,440,000)



Clearly the 34 year old Lin was not long for the team and although he's still a solid option at the point guard position, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson provides a shutdown level defensive combo forward who is uniquely capable of implementing the high pressure defensive system that coach Lawrence Frank has in mind. Pairing him with Kawhi on the wing will terrorize opposing wing players.

Trade 2.

TOR

SENDS
Lance Stephenson - $11,116,000
Total $$$ Sent: $11,116,000

BOS

SENDS
TJ Warren - $7,000,000
Travis Wear - $3,400,000
Total $$$ Sent: $11,400,00



Boston didn't have minutes for Warren and/or Wear and we were happy to move an expiring Lance Stephenson for two highly efficient offensive players who can also play on the defensive end of the court. Our goal is to build around defenders who can also spread the floor and Warren gives us a very solid scorer but not one who is going to hurt teams from the 3 point line. Still at 7M and at only 28 years old he gives us a reclamation project who we expect to average around 15/5 off the bench for us, so we will make an exception.

Lawrence Frank had this to say:

I think that with Kawhi's ability to handle the rock (60 HND) and make smart decisions, we will experiment with starting him at the SG position and having him split minutes at the 2 and the 3 and give Rondae Hollis-Jefferson the start at the 3 for us. Joseph/Kawhi/Rondae Hollis-Jefferson will be able to lock down the perimeter and this will also give Bell the opportunity to make plays from the frontcourt. With Curry/Johnson anchoring the bench and providing elite spacing and Warren giving us a guy who can create his own offense we should be able to make some noise in the Eastern conference. Travis Wear should give us some quality minutes in the frontcourt.

Cory Joseph/Seth Curry
Kawhi Leonard/Nick Johnson
Rondae Hollis-Jefferson/TJ Warren
Jordan Bell/David Wear
DeMarcus Cousins/Travis Wear/Jordan Bachynski

GM Blackice had this to say:

Obviously I wanted to make my mark on this team and although I've taken offers on everyone on the roster it's clear that Joseph and Bell are here to stay. Although we are in win now mode I won't be giving away our 1st rounders and although I'll move one for a difference maker I am perfectly content to continue to make minor moves and upgrade the roster without mortgaging the future of this franchise.

[Stockton12]

The wear brothers come back to re unite ....I like the trade with the wolves ..I do think u get a solid backup in wear from Boston ..just not sold on warren

[Andrewu91]

Looking like a real contender

[WillyJakkz]

I think TOR is in a tough place, move forward OR rebuild?

DeMarcus Cousins/ Kawhi Leonard who'll be 32/ 31 yrs old respectively are the star players and have to carry the team to contention which is hard enough and moving one or both for a rebuild may be the solution but....what's their value?

Reminds me of why I traded Cousins and George for the young guys I have now...tough decision man.

[blackice]

I think TOR is in a tough place, move forward OR rebuild?

DeMarcus Cousins/ Kawhi Leonard who'll be 32/ 31 yrs old respectively are the star players and have to carry the team to contention which is hard enough and moving one or both for a rebuild may be the solution but....what's their value?

Reminds me of why I traded Cousins and George for the young guys I have now...tough decision man.

Thanks for the feedback Willy, I think with Kawhi and Cousins still in their prime it wouldn't make sense to rebuild; we're going to try and win a title. The East isn't as strong as it used to be and we feel that with another move or two we could possibly end up as the favourites from the conference to win a title. It will all depend on how we counter zone defenses which is what I assume teams will do to gameplan against us. Hopefully we have enough shooting to make it work for us.

[Myles]

I think the Stephenson move was a mistake, as I think Toronto had the right amount of depth, and turning Stephenson into two below-average backups was not the right move. Warren can only score but he doesn’t do it that efficiently, and Wear is nice but he’s not aggressive enough at anything really. Stephenson was someone who could have started for you, especially if you wanted to try Kawhi at SG, then Stephenson could have easily stepped up as the starter at SF.

I liked the move to get RHJ though, I think you need a backup PG now but shouldn’t be too hard to get one especially since Joseph can play a lot of minutes.

[blackice]

I think the Stephenson move was a mistake, as I think Toronto had the right amount of depth, and turning Stephenson into two below-average backups was not the right move. Warren can only score but he doesn’t do it that efficiently, and Wear is nice but he’s not aggressive enough at anything really. Stephenson was someone who could have started for you, especially if you wanted to try Kawhi at SG, then Stephenson could have easily stepped up as the starter at SF.

I liked the move to get RHJ though, I think you need a backup PG now but shouldn’t be too hard to get one especially since Joseph can play a lot of minutes.

Always appretiate the feedback! I feel like Lance at now 32 years old would take a hit in ratings and although he's a fine spot starter I wanted to gamble on the 28 year old Warren who is actually extremely efficient (49 FG% last season, around 47 FG% in WAS) and has some interesting ratings (70 SCR/60 HND/60 DEF) and gives me more upside if he pans out. Given minutes he's highly productive and there's some upside there whereas with Lance he is what he is. I also picked up Wear who can give me 10-15 MPG at the PF and C position.

[Dennis]

I think that gamble by blavkice is the difference between an average gm and a good gm. For example everybody hated on MKG before Doug traded for him. Ever since one of the most liked players ever. I still remember he got kidd gilchrist super cheap. Just no idea what exactly the trade looked like.
The same here. GMs that don't do much research or analyse "what could be if he's a starter" will say "Warren sucks he didn't even get a start for you". Happens if teams are deep. But that doesn't mean a player ain't talented. Actually Warren is as efficient as lance. Doesn't shoot 3s well, but inside the arc one of the best wings. Would I be a no man's land team like new Orleans for example, I would have loved to gamble on such a player.
Lance on the other hand is done. 32 and with that first huge rating hit he gonna decline a lot. Some will say I'm biased.. But that's really just a trade to free up spots. Would I've to choose between Dotson Warren and Brice, I wouldn't want any of those on my team as they would play 0 minutes, but out of those i would prefer Warren as he does at least something on top level- score.

[Andrewu91]

I think that gamble by blavkice is the difference between an average gm and a good gm. For example everybody hated on MKG before Doug traded for him. Ever since one of the most liked players ever. I still remember he got kidd gilchrist super cheap. Just no idea what exactly the trade looked like.
The same here. GMs that don't do much research or analyse "what could be if he's a starter" will say "Warren sucks he didn't even get a start for you". Happens if teams are deep. But that doesn't mean a player ain't talented. Actually Warren is as efficient as lance. Doesn't shoot 3s well, but inside the arc one of the best wings. Would I be a no man's land team like new Orleans for example, I would have loved to gamble on such a player.
Lance on the other hand is done. 32 and with that first huge rating hit he gonna decline a lot. Some will say I'm biased.. But that's really just a trade to free up spots. Would I've to choose between Dotson Warren and Brice, I wouldn't want any of those on my team as they would play 0 minutes, but out of those i would prefer Warren as he does at least something on top level- score.

Everyone loved MKG when I first had him. Willy even maxed him before I matched the offer for him. He was my most asked about player. It's just Nuggolesk refused to trade him, before Myles became Nugs gm.
It's just Doug that used him correctly at pf. Think Myles still regrets that trade to this day.

Anyway, carry on

[Myles]

The only mistake I made in trading MKG was not being more patient in waiting for the right deal. I was adamant that I would deal all the big contracts away that offseason and have it off my plate, and for MKG specifically, that was the wrong move.

[Andrewu91]

The only mistake I made in trading MKG was not being more patient in waiting for the right deal. I was adamant that I would deal all the big contracts away that offseason and have it off my plate, and for MKG specifically, that was the wrong move.

Who did you receive in the trade? My mind is foggy. Jw

[Myles]

Alex Len, Darrun Hilliard, Amida Brimah, and the Suns 2020 1st which became one of FVV or Traevon Jackson. And then Len was turned into the Dallas 2020 1st which was the other one of FVV/Traevon. Definitely could have gotten more but I was also adamant that I didn’t take on any long salary so that hurt my opportunities

[Marcos_Beck]

The move for RHJ was really amazing. He’s the kind of player who is pretty much plug and play at the very best teams, as long as he’s in the correct situation (which he is right now cause you are looking to contend). Really really nice move with upside for a great payback.

Lance on the other hand is much much much better than those 2 you got for him. He was amazing for me, simple out amazing, won a ring here. You’re treating him as done but the reality is that players are not done once they hit 32. They can play until 33-34 at high level and some (LeBron for example) are going to start even at 35-36yo. Paul George just won MVP by a huge margin at 32. You might say Lance’s value will decrease to a minimum level once he hits the declines (and I disagree with this as well) but to call him done is absurd. First drops are at most a -2 in each category and he remains exactly the same player he was with those drops. Plus he’s expiring so you can re-up him at a much lower salary next offseason on a team friendly deal like many other teams did to aging starters. Look at Horford in POR for example, look at his playoff numbers and he’s old as hell.

People need to start treating older players with some value, specially those who are looking to contend. DeAndre Jordan did fantastic here and he’s 32, heading Denver to start for a contender at 33 now.
Wear is solid and so is Warren but they’re both overpaid for their roles IMO. And you didn’t need that much depth with all the talent you already had.

[blackice]

I love the feedback guys, thanks.

The thing is people look at our roster and think man, he's loaded. The reality is because I am not willing to move Joseph, Bell and Kawhi and very hesitant to move Cousins and even Johnson to a lesser degree - it creates a situation where my tradable assets (or assets that I am willing to trade) are actually quite limited. Turning our expiring contracts (34 year old Lin/32 year old Stephenson) into, essentially, Rondae Hollis-Jefferson/TJ Warren and Travis Wear was the right move for us. We didn't move our 1st, we didn't compromise other future 1st's which we could have done to upgrade (and we also discussed moving 1st's but nothing worthwhile materialized). RHJ and Warren are still quite young, and have tremendous upside on a roster that doesn't need much from them in their role here. I think many thought I'd take the team and nuke it, but given my experience, I decided to make smaller moves and keep the integrity of the core while getting better in incremental moves.

[Andrewu91]

Alex Len, Darrun Hilliard, Amida Brimah, and the Suns 2020 1st which became one of FVV or Traevon Jackson. And then Len was turned into the Dallas 2020 1st which was the other one of FVV/Traevon. Definitely could have gotten more but I was also adamant that I didn’t take on any long salary so that hurt my opportunities

Gotcha

[Dennis]

Myles / marcos I'm expecting some solid offers for lance the way you are hyping that guy lol. And yeah George still won MVP because he had way higher starting ratings to drop off from when declining. Lance is just a 8th man.

[Myles]

I’m expecting to get him for an expiring and a 2nd rounder the way you are talking about him. I’d love to have Lance back

[Dennis]

I would have traded him for that to be honest. But you guys let him sound like a killing machine. At the end of the season i think Warren will have the higher value.
But ywah, I only need that expring for the case I've ever the chance to consolidate and need salary to match. Lance won't play a single minute in Boston but garbage time due to what his level is compared to others on the team. Warren couldn't get any minutes and I see him as superior to lance. So unlikely he will.

[WillyJakkz]

I think that gamble by blavkice is the difference between an average gm and a good gm. For example everybody hated on MKG before Doug traded for him. Ever since one of the most liked players ever. I still remember he got kidd gilchrist super cheap. Just no idea what exactly the trade looked like.
The same here. GMs that don't do much research or analyse "what could be if he's a starter" will say "Warren sucks he didn't even get a start for you". Happens if teams are deep. But that doesn't mean a player ain't talented. Actually Warren is as efficient as lance. Doesn't shoot 3s well, but inside the arc one of the best wings. Would I be a no man's land team like new Orleans for example, I would have loved to gamble on such a player.
Lance on the other hand is done. 32 and with that first huge rating hit he gonna decline a lot. Some will say I'm biased.. But that's really just a trade to free up spots. Would I've to choose between Dotson Warren and Brice, I wouldn't want any of those on my team as they would play 0 minutes, but out of those i would prefer Warren as he does at least something on top level- score.

Everyone loved MKG when I first had him. Willy even maxed him before I matched the offer for him. He was my most asked about player. It's just Nuggolesk refused to trade him, before Myles became Nugs gm.
It's just Doug that used him correctly at pf. Think Myles still regrets that trade to this day.

Anyway, carry on

This. I tried so damn hard to pair Paul George with MKG but we couldn't agree on the value differential between he and Dieng at the time.

[WillyJakkz]

The move for RHJ was really amazing. He’s the kind of player who is pretty much plug and play at the very best teams, as long as he’s in the correct situation (which he is right now cause you are looking to contend). Really really nice move with upside for a great payback.

Lance on the other hand is much much much better than those 2 you got for him. He was amazing for me, simple out amazing, won a ring here. You’re treating him as done but the reality is that players are not done once they hit 32. They can play until 33-34 at high level and some (LeBron for example) are going to start even at 35-36yo. Paul George just won MVP by a huge margin at 32. You might say Lance’s value will decrease to a minimum level once he hits the declines (and I disagree with this as well) but to call him done is absurd. First drops are at most a -2 in each category and he remains exactly the same player he was with those drops. Plus he’s expiring so you can re-up him at a much lower salary next offseason on a team friendly deal like many other teams did to aging starters. Look at Horford in POR for example, look at his playoff numbers and he’s old as hell.

People need to start treating older players with some value, specially those who are looking to contend. DeAndre Jordan did fantastic here and he’s 32, heading Denver to start for a contender at 33 now.
Wear is solid and so is Warren but they’re both overpaid for their roles IMO. And you didn’t need that much depth with all the talent you already had.

Did this ninja just compare Lance Stephenson to Paul George...