The CSL

Myles wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:35 pm We are all still learning a lot about this engine (and unlearning a lot about DDS3, knowledge that has seeped in to our brains over the past 7 years and that we now have to forget). That was our understanding of the SCR rating based on what was told to me by Gary Gorski (game creator), but we all know that what he intended to do and what actually happens aren’t always the same.

I feel just something is really wrong when Green and his 45 Scoring and 84% pass ball action, made the most shots with Ullis in my team against NOP, but I couldn't pay attention to the pre-season, so obviously is just a game of sample size, lol.

Is it any way to access to the last file of the last pre-season? So I can have a better gauge of my team now? Apologies for the hustle.

Myles wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:41 pm https://www.championsimleague.com/viewt ... 24&t=10823

Awesome, thanks man.

Sharkn20 wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:39 pm

Myles wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:35 pm We are all still learning a lot about this engine (and unlearning a lot about DDS3, knowledge that has seeped in to our brains over the past 7 years and that we now have to forget). That was our understanding of the SCR rating based on what was told to me by Gary Gorski (game creator), but we all know that what he intended to do and what actually happens aren’t always the same.

I feel just something is really wrong when Green and his 45 Scoring and 84% pass ball action, made the most shots with Ullis in my team against NOP, but I couldn't pay attention to the pre-season, so obviously is just a game of sample size, lol.

The biggest issue I have with this game right now is that touches seem to be affected very heavily by how high their PAS (the rating, not the ball action) is for their position... SCR will help the number of touches they get (see Malik Monk) but frontcourt players with high PAS get treated like point forwards and see a massive bump in their number of touches. This is why Simmons, Bender, Ojeleye, Bridges, Draymond, and others how fit that mold have very high usage at the moment.

Undoubtedly this made it really difficult for the conversion team to create legitimate pass-first players. During the preseason this archetype of player could get 60+ touches per 36, even in the frontcourt (which is a very large amount for a frontcourt player).

In theory, if Draymond is instructed to shoot on a sixth of his touches, that's a minimum 10 shots right there if he's getting 60 touches. Now here is my untested theory based on what we saw in the preseason: these high-pass% players with extra touches are seen as your team's "go-to" option when a play breaks down and you need a bail out shot at the end of the shot clock (which you'll have more of if you don't have enough scorers on the floor and/or play slowly).

In my opinion the only way to make real pass-first players is to have plenty of scorers with a lower pass% around them, and/or have them shooting on less than 10% of their touches.

Again, it's a totally untested theory. Just my attempt to rationalize some of the stuff I saw in our preseasons.

KW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:11 pm

Sharkn20 wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:39 pm

Myles wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:35 pm We are all still learning a lot about this engine (and unlearning a lot about DDS3, knowledge that has seeped in to our brains over the past 7 years and that we now have to forget). That was our understanding of the SCR rating based on what was told to me by Gary Gorski (game creator), but we all know that what he intended to do and what actually happens aren’t always the same.

I feel just something is really wrong when Green and his 45 Scoring and 84% pass ball action, made the most shots with Ullis in my team against NOP, but I couldn't pay attention to the pre-season, so obviously is just a game of sample size, lol.

The biggest issue I have with this game right now is that touches seem to be affected very heavily by how high their PAS (the rating, not the ball action) is for their position... SCR will help the number of touches they get (see Malik Monk) but frontcourt players with high PAS get treated like point forwards and see a massive bump in their number of touches. This is why Simmons, Bender, Ojeleye, Bridges, Draymond, and others how fit that mold have very high usage at the moment.

Undoubtedly this made it really difficult for the conversion team to create legitimate pass-first players. During the preseason this archetype of player could get 60+ touches per 36, even in the frontcourt (which is a very large amount for a frontcourt player).

In theory, if Draymond is instructed to shoot on a sixth of his touches, that's a minimum 10 shots right there if he's getting 60 touches. Now here is my untested theory based on what we saw in the preseason: these high-pass% players with extra touches are seen as your team's "go-to" option when a play breaks down and you need a bail out shot at the end of the shot clock (which you'll have more of if you don't have enough scorers on the floor and/or play slowly).

In my opinion the only way to make real pass-first players is to have plenty of scorers with a lower pass% around them, and/or have them shooting on less than 10% of their touches.

Again, it's a totally untested theory. Just my attempt to rationalize some of the stuff I saw in our preseasons.

Very helpful man, thanks a lot as usual, will have to change him a lot ASAP.

Where can I see the number of touches of my players?

Sharkn20 wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 12:40 am

KW wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 4:11 pm

Sharkn20 wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 1:39 pm

I feel just something is really wrong when Green and his 45 Scoring and 84% pass ball action, made the most shots with Ullis in my team against NOP, but I couldn't pay attention to the pre-season, so obviously is just a game of sample size, lol.

The biggest issue I have with this game right now is that touches seem to be affected very heavily by how high their PAS (the rating, not the ball action) is for their position... SCR will help the number of touches they get (see Malik Monk) but frontcourt players with high PAS get treated like point forwards and see a massive bump in their number of touches. This is why Simmons, Bender, Ojeleye, Bridges, Draymond, and others how fit that mold have very high usage at the moment.

Undoubtedly this made it really difficult for the conversion team to create legitimate pass-first players. During the preseason this archetype of player could get 60+ touches per 36, even in the frontcourt (which is a very large amount for a frontcourt player).

In theory, if Draymond is instructed to shoot on a sixth of his touches, that's a minimum 10 shots right there if he's getting 60 touches. Now here is my untested theory based on what we saw in the preseason: these high-pass% players with extra touches are seen as your team's "go-to" option when a play breaks down and you need a bail out shot at the end of the shot clock (which you'll have more of if you don't have enough scorers on the floor and/or play slowly).

In my opinion the only way to make real pass-first players is to have plenty of scorers with a lower pass% around them, and/or have them shooting on less than 10% of their touches.

Again, it's a totally untested theory. Just my attempt to rationalize some of the stuff I saw in our preseasons.

Very helpful man, thanks a lot as usual, will have to change him a lot ASAP.

Where can I see the number of touches of my players?

MISC stats tab. You're looking for "TCHS"

I would do it per 36 minutes to see how often your players touch it compared to each other

We're only 2 games in so I'm looking at the dry run stats (20 games) but I'm not seeing it. Or maybe I'm looking in the wrong area when it comes to your comment about the pass rating.

Like Bender is 64.7 touches per 36 minutes in that sim compared to 59 touches per game last season. Ojeleye at 41 touches versus 57.4 lasts season. Bridges 76.5 versus 65.1 so they're not massively off touch wise for some. Draymond is a weird one being at 86.9 versus only 49.9 last season.

One thing we're completely forgetting, in my opinion, is if there was some type of hidden flag in DDS3 about players playing above or below their ratings. It's kind of like the boom/bust feature but I always felt like if a player was hit by that, they would never live up to the ratings they have. I had Bender in category actually. Flagged as a 'bust' or whatever you want to call the flag, in DDS3, he never played up to the ratings he had. That completely disappears in DDS19 and if he was assigned that 'bust' flag, it's gone and he's normal now.

I remember that from TPB 2005 to DDS also in the NLL. Oden was the top pick and had insane ratings for a big but was categorised as a bust by the game. In TPB, you used to actually get the emails that would tell you who had boomed/busted so we knew for sure. Great, great ratings but never played up to them because he was a bust. After the transisiton to the DDS line of games, he was great again. No more bust tag and he played up to those ratings.

I've got a feeling that will happen to the odd guy here also. In turn also, some of the boomers from DDS3 might take a hit. Like, maybe an Isaiah Taylor won't be as good? Who knows as he's on the Suns bench, lol. That's the problem with game transitions using ratings only because with these TPB/DDS games, it ignores this hidden boom/bust thing Wolverine likes to do.

Just a theory but there's a lot more to this game and it's impossible at the moment to pin point one single area. Dennis is talking about Fox a lot and his efficiency maybe but he's only getting about 5 touches less than last season.

Maybe I underestimated the correlation between PAS and touches in the old engine. I haven't looked in a while. But in DDS3, players were shooting at a rate directly proportional to their SCR rating and that of their teammates, and that's it. No ball actions to factor in.

Now how much you shoot is tied both to how much you touch the ball and both yours and your teammates' ball actions. From memory, Green and Ulis pounded the hell out of the rock in the preseason- totally dominated the touches because their PAS is so much higher than anyone else on the team. The other players played passively so they took matters into their own hands and chucked like there was no tomorrow. I don't have an answer to that problem, I just think pass first players like them should be 90+ PASS% and be surrounded by aggressive scorers whenever possible.



I'm with you that some players consistently played above or below their ratings. I often wonder if it was simply a matter of fit (Aminu for example was always a beast here despite very mediocre ratings and never had that same magic in his other stops... On the other end I always saw Embiid as an underachiever, but that could've been due to having no spacing in Orlando for the last 84 years)..... But there was something. I certainly didn't consider Bender in that mold. Last season he did what I would expect him to do with his ratings.

At this point, what we've got is what we've got. Some players are simply way differently utilized by the engine and there's really nothing that can be done about that aside from being allowed to lower their Pass%. There was no perfect conversion, but our admins did as good a job as well couldve realistically asked for.

Haha, 84 years made me actually laugh out loud

Yeah, if we give the game credit that it all kind of works, it's now intricate enough that team makeup and the surrounding players and ball actions are critical. You could actually have a really talented team that doesn't mesh well together at all and struggle or a less talented team that is made up so well, it wins games.

Or so we might have to believe.

bt wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 6:13 am Haha, 84 years made me actually laugh out loud

Yeah, if we give the game credit that it all kind of works, it's now intricate enough that team makeup and the surrounding players and ball actions are critical. You could actually have a really talented team that doesn't mesh well together at all and struggle or a less talented team that is made up so well, it wins games.

Or so we might have to believe.

I think the fact that team makeup actually matters now is great improvement. In DDS3, a GM could just trade for talented players and it always magically worked out that there was enough balls to go around and that team always won a lot of games. GMs will have to actually make practical moves now that make sense.

In the end, yes this engine is VERY different which means a small percentage of players might be different and that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with that here and it’s a dynamic that we will adjust to.

I know there are a handful of GMs who think we should be able to adjust PASS% how we want but also stating how powerful that rating is. As Sam Hinkie said, “Trust the Process”. We will find a balance that works for the league but we need to see a full seasons worth of information at least before we make any potential adjustments.

As always, keep posting potential bugs (both major and minor) and suggested improvements and they will all be discussed as a league for the best path forward.

I agree with and support the admin decision. The pass ball action is so powerful and difficult to adjust that it's better to not change it.

Also, I have seen some weird behaviours like a player with 95 % pass and below 40 SCR shoot a lot. These are rare cases, but they do happen from time to time.

mgtr81 wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 2:00 pm Also, I have seen some weird behaviours like a player with 95 % pass and below 40 SCR shoot a lot. These are rare cases, but they do happen from time to time.

Its mostly based on pass rating, pass pref, playing style(position), and team mates.

even with 95% passing if the other 3 factors favor shooting, they could still take a lot of shots.

I think shooters who's job it is to just shoot, not handle or pass were given too high pass prefs. These players only shoot when wide open. Most of them are +60 TS% but on 5 shots per 36 minutes its pretty worthless. Especially if they are poor defenders and offense is the reason they are in the league.

Silogical wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 12:57 am

mgtr81 wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 2:00 pm Also, I have seen some weird behaviours like a player with 95 % pass and below 40 SCR shoot a lot. These are rare cases, but they do happen from time to time.

Its mostly based on pass rating, pass pref, playing style(position), and team mates.

even with 95% passing if the other 3 factors favor shooting, they could still take a lot of shots.

I think shooters who's job it is to just shoot, not handle or pass were given too high pass prefs. These players only shoot when wide open. Most of them are +60 TS% but on 5 shots per 36 minutes its pretty worthless. Especially if they are poor defenders and offense is the reason they are in the league.

Yeah I should be able to give Doug a flat out green light like Kyle Korver taking any open 3 he sees.

So guys just to confirm here:

The PASS Ball action - the higher it is the more the player shoots or the other way around i.e. the lower it is, the more the player shoots (this one makes more sense to me)

The higher the pass ACTION, the more he passes. However, the higher the pass-RATING, the more touches for the player as well as more shots. It's basically a new "second" scr rating. Shots taken by Players, if I look at my findings, are determined to 40% by pass RATING, 35% pass ACTION, 25% SCR (roughly).

Been reading a bit at Wolverine and I ran a couple of tests and it's pretty complex in that it really depends on where you are putting your players and in what system.

We all have different opinions and I'm probably wrong, lol, but I don't really subscribe to the higher pass rating equals more shots because it's so dependent on other factors. More touches yes but you put a high post ball action guy but give him 100% ATB and he won't shoot nearly as much. That's a real simple basic example but yeah.

Plus the strategy run is key too. Run a pace and space and a high post guy non catch and shoot/pullup guy might just then become a screener where as a post guy with some catch and shoot/pullup could actually take shots.

Yep, you need to have a smart ballaction / locations combination to make it work. But when you have a player that works well regarding those two points and you only change the passrating/passpreference/scrrating, passrating has the biggest impact, followed by passpref and scoring last. If the ballaction/locations are a weird combination, it wont have an impact though.

Yeah, makes sense.

man this is super complicated for my limited brain

So then a player like Shaq would have a very high PASS rating. But if bt is right, running a Perimeter offense would not be useful to Shaq even if he is surrounded by perimeter scorers.

Which offense would you run for these Lakers then to maximise both inside and perimeter scorers:

PG Fisher - perimeter role player
SG Kobe - perimeter primary scorer - overall option 1A
SF Rice - perimeter secondary scorer - overall option 2
PF Grant - inside role player
C Shaq - inside primary scorer - overall option 1