The CSL

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:46 pm All good, just tough luck I think. Was just confused that lower scr higher pass guys have a lower pass tendency. That’s it.

I’m just going to say that there is a formula and then a positional factor. The problem was certain players broke that formula and performed at crazy levels well above their ratings with what I can only attribute to a hidden rating that the database assigned to them. Because of this further adjustments had to be made so that these players don’t break the balance of the engine and the league.

I would probably consider yourself lucky that you have one of these players but let’s see how this season plays out.

one other question: let's say a player has a 60 SCR now and was given ball actions corresponding to their 60 SCR, but has the potential to be 80 SCR. Will their PASS% be adjusted over time so that they're able to utilize their increased scoring ability in the future?

KW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:59 pm one other question: let's say a player has a 60 SCR now and was given ball actions corresponding to their 60 SCR, but has the potential to be 80 SCR. Will their PASS% be adjusted over time so that they're able to utilize their increased scoring ability in the future?

The formula was based on both SCR and PAS potential and not current.

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:22 pm Can we get an idea how pass rating was transferred? I dont see a logic way right now as some scorer are at 75 (Dunn, T Young, M Teodosic for example - Monk even at 64) while fox/Joseph are at 85 - just to name a few player. Was pass transferred according to SCR rating? All named guys are roughly same SCR and same position (PG). Yet they vary by up to 20 points+.

Also, Fox is at 77 so I don't know what you're smoking. Monk is a SG so he didn't get the same positional factor, but playing him at PG doesn't generate the type of production that a true PG does.

emplep7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:35 pm

KW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:59 pm one other question: let's say a player has a 60 SCR now and was given ball actions corresponding to their 60 SCR, but has the potential to be 80 SCR. Will their PASS% be adjusted over time so that they're able to utilize their increased scoring ability in the future?

The formula was based on both SCR and PAS potential and not current.

nice

Guys, that sounds like a HUGE project you just did.
Appreciate it and can't wait to see the "new" Hawks perform and see where the journey goes. Thanks a lot!!

emplep7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:35 pm

KW wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:59 pm one other question: let's say a player has a 60 SCR now and was given ball actions corresponding to their 60 SCR, but has the potential to be 80 SCR. Will their PASS% be adjusted over time so that they're able to utilize their increased scoring ability in the future?

The formula was based on both SCR and PAS potential and not current.

Wow that's awesome.

Haven't had a chance to look at the file or anything yet but great work guys. I can imagine it was a mountain of work.

One thing I just can't understand is how Wolverine doesn't test these things. I mean, even just the high/low limits of a rating to see the impact. Surely someone there should have tested the high/low pass action and noticed the issues but guess not and now house rules have to apply... again.

emplep7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 11:39 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:22 pm Can we get an idea how pass rating was transferred? I dont see a logic way right now as some scorer are at 75 (Dunn, T Young, M Teodosic for example - Monk even at 64) while fox/Joseph are at 85 - just to name a few player. Was pass transferred according to SCR rating? All named guys are roughly same SCR and same position (PG). Yet they vary by up to 20 points+.

Also, Fox is at 77 so I don't know what you're smoking. Monk is a SG so he didn't get the same positional factor, but playing him at PG doesn't generate the type of production that a true PG does.

I was going by pass + pass drive. My take away so far in offline leagues was that you can’t go under ~3 pass drive for a PG as he somehow become super inefficient. Maybe players know you won’t pass and will defend differently, no idea. (Okay I give Gary too much credit).

Interesting stuff concerning monk. In offline leagues i moved the lowest pass guy with solid handles to pg every time I could and they’ve did a good job racking up points but have been awful TO wise. Preseason gonna hlep, no doubt.

emplep7 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 10:44 pm

Dennis wrote: ↑Mon Apr 27, 2020 8:46 pm All good, just tough luck I think. Was just confused that lower scr higher pass guys have a lower pass tendency. That’s it.

I’m just going to say that there is a formula and then a positional factor. The problem was certain players broke that formula and performed at crazy levels well above their ratings with what I can only attribute to a hidden rating that the database assigned to them. Because of this further adjustments had to be made so that these players don’t break the balance of the engine and the league.

I would probably consider yourself lucky that you have one of these players but let’s see how this season plays out.

I don’t think it’s related to a hidden rating imo. I do think it depends on floor range. Players with high corner/ATB and CS just don’t shoot that much. That’s why the produce less. I think if you adjust the ball actions and preferences to the same level for fox and say young plus adjust their shooting to the same, you will get roughly the same outcome.

But I just wanted to know why it doesn’t fit totally to the scr pas formula, that’s it. It looked like there was an error in it. If some have been adjusted afterwards as you said to fix monster, that’s totally fine. Just trying to understand the switch.

Many thanks for the explanation!

Are rookie ball actions accurate? they seem to be all messed up.

Silogical wrote: ↑Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:22 am Are rookie ball actions accurate? they seem to be all messed up.

Everything is accurate to this point, but in the first announcement we stated that we had to adjust the rookie Ball Actions because it was an error on our part to have the Draft Team set the Ball Actions without us fully understanding what additional adjustments needed to be made. They shouldn't be too far off fro what the draft team put forward since we wanted to stick to them as best as we could, but the PASS% adjustment did impact them as well.

We converted their PASS% using the same formula we used for the DDS3 players, but in hindsight we should have had them make rookies for DDS3 and converted everyone together.

Excellent work guys. Haven't had a chance to take a deep dive, but I'll see how the preseason stats look.

Excited to see these changes in preseason #2, thanks for awesome work Jon and Myles!

Update Part 2.5 (and this will be included in the main post)

After some further testing, we have decided to cap the Corner location (similar to how we did for the drive preference in DDS3) to 40, in order to maintain the balance of three point shooting and keep some semblance of realism. There's a reason why when you look at the breakdown in frequency of corner three point attempts vs. three point attempts above the break, that you only see low usage role players at the top of the corner 3, and you'll never see a high usage star shooting many corner 3s (in the NBA). We didn't want to do anything too complicated and put too much on our plate, so we have decided on a flat cap of 40 for the corner location for all players. For players who's floor ranges were already above that number, we simply moved the difference into their ATB location rating, so they will still shoot the same number of 3s.

Well, Rookie questions here:

So if Scoring now is how effective the player is at it, what the inside and outside shooting rating mean?

Is it like Scoring + Outside shooting when shooting from mid-range or 3, and Scoring + Inside shooting when posting and dunking to determine effectiveness? Or something along that lines? Thanks in advance!

Scoring definitely has nothing to do with how efficient someone scores. I can tell you first hand, lol.

Score rating just helps Ito decide who scores more when you have all players on the same pass pref level. That’s it.

Dennis wrote: ↑Fri May 01, 2020 12:48 pm Scoring definitely has nothing to do with how efficient someone scores. I can tell you first hand, lol.

Score rating just helps Ito decide who scores more when you have all players on the same pass pref level. That’s it.

Well that's completely different of what it was posted in the first post of the thread:

4. Through the pre-season we found that the PASS Ball Action rating was incredibly powerful (we knew this, but not to this extent). The SCR rating in DDS19 more pertains to scoring ability and less about how much they will shoot. The PASS Ball Action is essentially linked to the SCR rating now where it tells you how often a player will shoot (aka score more). The PAS rating (not the Ball Action) also is the same where it means passing ability and not how often they will pass the ball. Just note if a player has a low SCR rating, but a low PASS Ball Action they will shoot a bunch, but at a much less efficient clip than a player with a high SCR rating.

That’s not correct then. You can run offline tests. Efficiency isn’t correlated to scr rating in any of my tests at all. Scr rating means only that a player shoots more when he has roughly the same pas pref like others.

We are all still learning a lot about this engine (and unlearning a lot about DDS3, knowledge that has seeped in to our brains over the past 7 years and that we now have to forget). That was our understanding of the SCR rating based on what was told to me by Gary Gorski (game creator), but we all know that what he intended to do and what actually happens aren’t always the same.